Posts by Cold Steel

133

What are the biggest holes in evolution?

by shadow in

how honest are the proponents of evolution?

idk but curious to see what type of response there is on a topic like this or does their study only seek to confirm their preconceptions and ignore uncomfortable facts?

Cold Steel

I don't know enough about evolution to either argue for it or against it. My primary concerns, however, include the following:

1) It seems predicated on the assumption that there is no God, or intelligent designer.

2) The idea that simple organisms can mutate into increasingly complex ones. I'd like to see some evidence this is possible. To think 1-cell organisms can mutate, without a great deal of outside help, into modern humans over a long period of time, is difficult for me to accept.

3) That life and intelligence can evolve from a spontaneous action.

If the Big Bang happened (and I believe it possible), then everything that erupted from it must have been sterile. How can life spring from sterility. Can life and intelligence come from the interactions of electricity on amino acids? I would like to see it. I also would like to see intelligence come from any green slime that might appear.

If evolution can be shown to be consistent with theism, I might be willing to accept it. Nevertheless, I'm also willing to wait until the Lord's coming for answers. "Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven."

31

The GB know it's all lies and wants to dismantle the WTS ... then what?

by Simon in

so imagine the gb have a sudden attack of honesty and realize "crap, this whole thing is lies - we're not god's spokespeople at all !".

how do you dismantle a religion that has +8 million members in a responsible way?

you can't just publish a watchtower saying "we were wrong" because that would be irresponsible - you need to let people down gently, put people off gradually.

Cold Steel

But how would most of the organization's members handle it if they suddenly learned everything they believed in is a lie? Would most give up on Christianity? After all, the outfit teaches some pretty harsh things against other Christians. If they die and suddenly realize they are spirits and not asleep, what would they think?

Oh my gosh, I'm an anointed one! We don't die at death!

Or would they look at their bodies on the slabs and think, Well, we were wrong about that!

What would you do?

16

Do People Have Spirits? What Do the Early Texts Say?

by Cold Steel in

for years adventist sects, including the jws, have believed that the dead sleep at death and remain non-existent until the resurrection.

its strongest argument seems to be text in the non-escchatological book of ecclesiastes in the old testament.

although a part of the canon of scripture, the book is not written by a prophet, nor is there any prophecy or recognizable doctrine contained therein.

Cold Steel

For years adventist sects, including the JWs, have believed that the dead sleep at death and remain non-existent until the resurrection. Its strongest argument seems to be text in the non-escchatological book of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament. Although a part of the canon of scripture, the book is not written by a prophet, nor is there any prophecy or recognizable doctrine contained therein. Solomon, the Son of David, had spent the last part of his life sinning against God. He was old, tired and most likely not positively disposed towards a rosey afterlife. In fact, he seems to have a poor disposition towards life and the purpose thereof. Theologians within these adventist sects argue against the rest of Christianity that Ecclesiastes teaches a doctrine that the rest of the scriptures don't seem consistent with. Instead, they argue, it was the encroachment of heretical Greek thought on a susceptible church that was opening its preaching to increasingly large numbers of gentiles.

But what of the pseudopigraphical works produced by the Jews? Or the libraries of rival Christians who were even further removed from Greek thought, such as the Nag Hammadi library, discovered in 1947 at about the same time as the Dead Sea Scrolls? Of particular interest is the Apocalypse of Abraham, a Hebrew work written from 75-150 A.D. and later translated into Slavonic. This was originally a Hebrew writing that is not produced by the Greeks, but by the Jews. Yet it not only teaches men live on after death (like most near death experiences from all cultures around the earth), but that men had pre-mortal lives:

And while [Yahweh] was yet speaking, the expanses opened, and there below me were the heavens, and I saw upon the seventh firmament upon which I stood a fire widely extended, and the light which is the treasury of life, and the dew with which God will awaken the dead, and the spirits of the departed righteous, and the spirits of those souls who have yet to be born, and judgment and righteousness, peace and blessing, and an innumerable company of angels, and the Living Ones, and the Power of the Invisible Glory that sat above the Living Ones.

The Christians who wrote and kept the Egyptian library also believed in the spirits of mankind and the separation of the spirits of the just and unjust. These are considered the oldest Christian documents known -- significantly earlier than any of the scriptures in the present canon. Yet they teach man has an immortal spirit, and a number teach premortal life.

In other words, far from being Greek heresy, the doctrine that man has an eternal spirit appears to be a well-entrenched Jewish/Christian doctrine. But why doesn't the WTBTS change?

28

Satanic Temple’s Seven Tenets - Makes 10 Commandments Sound Facile

by cofty in

the so-called 10 commandments are a post-biblical construct.... there is an elohist list at exodus 20 and a yahwist one at exodus 34 that contains such gems as "you shall not cook a kid in its mother’s milk.".

any intelligent adult could create a more useful list of ethical precepts before the end of a coffee break.. it is interesting to compare the satanic temple's seven tenets.

i think you might agree that it makes yahweh's rules look like they were written by a bronze age power-hungry, misogynistic priest.

Cold Steel

...you totally ignored the inconvenient fact that your god advocates slavery.

I did not ignore the fact. I asked you to give me an example of immoral codes of God's law and you said slavery. I then asked you to explain how you knew slavery is wrong? Instead of answering me, you ask me to just accept it and answer the question. But by doing that you put the burden on me to explain an evil we haven't agreed was evil. It's an old debate trick and I can spot it a mile off. Besides, trying to discuss anything with you is very difficult because you're sloppy in your statements, which take only a moment to make but considerable time tip answer. It's clear you're getting this stuff off a website because I hear other atheists make the same points...unless you get your History doctorates from the same university.

It's a fact that the moral concepts of the ancient Hebrews were light years ahead of any of their neighbors (compare them to your Canaanite friends, for example). That law did not tolerate the mistreatment of any bonded servant or slave, and it commanded Israel to take in their servants and make them better people and eventually part of your family. You can check it out here.

It would have been within God's laws to torture a slave to death. So long as the death doesn't immediately follow the beatings. Agonisng prolonged deaths of beaten and tortured slaves are sanctioned by your almighty God.

Not so. Deliberately torturing a slave to death would be against the entire tone and tint of God's law, which was based on compassion, brotherhood and betterment. Why critics can't maintain even a modicum of objectivity and comment on the Mosaic codes in the context of the times, place and culture of the people is beyond me. Many of those codes are far superior to anything man has developed, and I'm an admirer of Greek law and culture as well as Roman civil law, as well as the civil teachings of Ma'at, previously discussed. But how did man develop these things and know instinctively that they were "good"? Or that some things were "evil"?

Many of the American founders knew enough of what to incorporate into our civil law to promote freedom and ensure domestic tranquility, and it's a fine balance. They knew slavery was wrong, but they laid the groundwork for a system of government that would transcend the practice. But it requires a balance. At the end of World War II, General MacArthur refused to be an active force in developing the New Japanese constitution. He gave them copies of other codes and constitutions and told them to write theirs. The only stipulation he made is that they had to guarantee the equal rights of women. He introduced the concepts of labor unions and free trade without the adversarial components, and it all turned Japan around and made it the foremost industrial power in the Far East.

But despite man knowing good from evil, there are plenty of times they deliberately chose evil to get power or gain. Whether it's abortion or the burning of infants (which the Canaanites delighted in), the question of good versus evil was viewed more subjectively. The fact remains, the Hebrews and their laws were far above any of the other peoples of their day.

28

Satanic Temple’s Seven Tenets - Makes 10 Commandments Sound Facile

by cofty in

the so-called 10 commandments are a post-biblical construct.... there is an elohist list at exodus 20 and a yahwist one at exodus 34 that contains such gems as "you shall not cook a kid in its mother’s milk.".

any intelligent adult could create a more useful list of ethical precepts before the end of a coffee break.. it is interesting to compare the satanic temple's seven tenets.

i think you might agree that it makes yahweh's rules look like they were written by a bronze age power-hungry, misogynistic priest.

Cold Steel

SaintBerholdt» ...that is Devil worship or in other words Inverse Christianity, not Satanism.

What?? Hello! Devil Worship = Satanism. Inverse Christianity is a form of, but is not limited to, both.

Lucifer founded his own cult and tied the sons of men to it (including Cain and his wife) with blood oaths. If men take upon themselves the worship of Satan without his instrumentality, it's the same as men worshipping God without God's instrumentality. It may take one a distance, but not all the way.

Those who worship Satan saying he was wronged by God -- that he's in reality a beautiful being with a desire only to help humanity -- well, that's something else. Something based on deception. But all of it is counterproductive to man.

28

Satanic Temple’s Seven Tenets - Makes 10 Commandments Sound Facile

by cofty in

the so-called 10 commandments are a post-biblical construct.... there is an elohist list at exodus 20 and a yahwist one at exodus 34 that contains such gems as "you shall not cook a kid in its mother’s milk.".

any intelligent adult could create a more useful list of ethical precepts before the end of a coffee break.. it is interesting to compare the satanic temple's seven tenets.

i think you might agree that it makes yahweh's rules look like they were written by a bronze age power-hungry, misogynistic priest.

Cold Steel

Smiddy» Apparently he believes in the Bible, so apart from God approving of blood sacrifices of animals and birds by the millions, God also destroyed every animal and bird life everywhere on earth in the flood of Noah`s day except for a handful of survivors.

God respects animal life. He knows because of the fall, all men and animals must die. He has given them into our care as their stewards. Animal sacrifice pointed us to Christ and was a teaching tool. And every animal, as with every human, is immortal and lives on after death. And all, both humans and animals, will be resurrected. So God doesn't snuff out the existence of any animal...or man. Nor is it his will that animals suffer at the hands of man, and has taught us how to take life with little or no pain.

28

Satanic Temple’s Seven Tenets - Makes 10 Commandments Sound Facile

by cofty in

the so-called 10 commandments are a post-biblical construct.... there is an elohist list at exodus 20 and a yahwist one at exodus 34 that contains such gems as "you shall not cook a kid in its mother’s milk.".

any intelligent adult could create a more useful list of ethical precepts before the end of a coffee break.. it is interesting to compare the satanic temple's seven tenets.

i think you might agree that it makes yahweh's rules look like they were written by a bronze age power-hungry, misogynistic priest.

Cold Steel

The Ma'atian ethics, so-called, are seen by many historians as a foundation of societal longevity. I have a beautiful painted Egyptian statute of Ma'at on my bookshelf and the various codes attributed to her worship not only promoted civility, but justice. If followed, those codes not only helped provide for the common defense, but helped ensure domestic tranquility. These are traits put into the hearts of men by God and are recognized as being honorable and virtuous attributes far removed from instinct. Cats all over the world lick themselves the same way without being taught, but instinct can't explain ingrained moral behavior.

Slavery. NOT servitude of one Israelite to another but the ownership of a man or woman who was a non-Israelite. They could be beaten and passed on as chattel to children.Your god does not get that it is dehumanising for one human to own another human.

What convinces you that slavery is wrong? If there's no God to declare it wrong, then there's no immorality involved at all. Yet it is wrong under most circumstances. But under the Mosaic Law, it was permitted, albeit with a host of restrictions designed to preserve human dignity. Your god, Cofty, has no virtues or vices. There is, in your mind, no goodness in him, nor evil, because (as you said) he doesn't exist. Yet you claim to be arbiter enough to judge Yahweh for allowing the servitude of men one to another. Again, how do you know forced servitude is evil if there is no God? Who told you it's evil? ("Who told thee thou wast naked?") Who put it into your mind? Were you born knowing it? How do you know torturing animals is wrong? Or anything else?

By the way most of the OT law was plagiarised from the code of Hammurabi.

It is true that both appear to have a common source, but no one knows who devised the code or from whence it was derived. Since God gave the law to Moses, I suspect it was given before. Of course, if there is no God, then some ancient probably wrote it and some sneaky Hebrew scribe stole it and attributed it to the Hebrew God. But even then no one knows for sure. Stuff that old is mostly conjecture. It's just like the story of the ancient flood. Just because a version is the oldest known does not mean it's the original. The flood is a tradition had among the Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Jews, Mayans, Olmecs, Aztecs, Asians, North American natives and many other peoples. The oldest we have extant is the Babylonian. But that doesn't mean it originated with them. So my answer to you is, please stop spouting off stuff you read on your little atheistic bull boards and start proving your points.

Oh, and one last thing. How do you know there's no Satan? 😈

28

Satanic Temple’s Seven Tenets - Makes 10 Commandments Sound Facile

by cofty in

the so-called 10 commandments are a post-biblical construct.... there is an elohist list at exodus 20 and a yahwist one at exodus 34 that contains such gems as "you shall not cook a kid in its mother’s milk.".

any intelligent adult could create a more useful list of ethical precepts before the end of a coffee break.. it is interesting to compare the satanic temple's seven tenets.

i think you might agree that it makes yahweh's rules look like they were written by a bronze age power-hungry, misogynistic priest.

Cold Steel

There is an Elohist list at Exodus 20 and a Yahwist one at Exodus 34 that contains such gems as "You shall not cook a kid in its mother’s milk." Any intelligent adult could create a more useful list of ethical precepts before the end of a coffee break.

Yes, if not cooking a kid in its mother's milk was the pinnacle of the Mosaic Law. But it's not. In fact, it's a very moralistic code that's rich in ethics, compassion and morality. Militant atheists revel in the same things that Satan does, and that's accusation. They stand collectively as an adversary and accuser of God. The mother's milk is life to her young. That the Lord would see the horrific ramifications of this and forbid it recognizes the sacrifice of life in both the mother and the kid.

The law also forbade the netting of all of one's fig trees to protect them from hungry birds. You could net some, but you had to leave a portion of them unnetted so as to feed the birds. There were similar provisions for animals and the ethical, compassionate use and treatment of beasts. Crops could not be fenced, but had to be open to allow the hungry to eat. The people also were taught not to gather a farmer's food for their own profit, and there were ethical treatments and protections for both beasts of burden and bonded servants. I lack the time and space to tutor you on these things, but the laws of God to the ancients have never been equaled or excelled by mortal law. But to accuse, you, like the great accuser of God, must stoop to dishonest levels to oppose Him. Why not list what you feel are the immoral codes of God's law? Where was He petty, vindictive, unfair?

It is interesting to compare The Satanic Temple's Seven Tenets. I think you might agree that it makes Yahweh's rules look like they were written by a Bronze Age power-hungry, misogynistic priest.

Yes, and where do you find Satan advocating those seven tenents? What about those he endorsed anciently, such as to murder to get power and gain, torture animals, human sacrifice, including the throwing of living infants into the fires, and the decadent immoral practices of sacral prostitution, bestiality and other immoral practices forbidden by God. There were plenty of misogynistic priests anciently, but they were primarily the priests in the employ of the Adversary, not God. You also are wholly ignorant of the levels of wickedness in pagan society or, as we've seen, in God's law, yet you pretend to sit in judgment of His ethics. Yet where would any of us ever have conceived of ethics, or evils, were it not for God, who is the author of those ethics? Off not for Him, they would not exist.

24

GB Members: What's the Story?

by Cold Steel in

over the past few decades i've met many individual jws, but i've always been curious about the gb members themselves and about service at bethel.

first, do gb members fraternize with regular rank and file members or do they only sell out each other?

when i was a methodist, it didn't take me long to figure out that our minister and his wife were frequently invited to dinner, but i never heard of him actually inviting members to his house for dinner.

Cold Steel

Some interesting comments here, but I'm surprised they're so impersonal. If a person is working at Bethel and are seeing these GB members all the time or are hearing stories about them, I'd think they would be either very positive or very negative. I'd never heard of Ray Franz being DF'ed for merely having a meal with another DF'ed member (I'd heard he had a friendship with someone, but wasn't he first warned before he was canned?).

Is there a senior member of the GB who sits above the rest -- like the apostle Peter? Or is it all up to a vote?

What would be the effect, hypothetically speaking, if one of the more well known GB members announced that he'd had a vision or visitation from On High? Would he tend to be believed our would he be dismissed?

I'd really like to know how these guys see themselves. Are they confident in their callings? Do they enthusiastically buy into their own story? Do they see the WTBTS as God's crowning work in the last days and view themselves as part of it? And do the people at Bethel feel honored to be working shoulder-to-shoulder with the Lord's specially anointed, or is their attitude more like "Yeah, right!"

8

New Converts: When Does It Start?

by Cold Steel in

johnny normal is watching television one day when he hears a knock at the door.

answering it he sees two jehovah's witnesses clutching bibles; and one a brief case.

over the next few months things are going well.

Cold Steel

Johnny Normal is watching television one day when he hears a knock at the door. Answering it he sees two Jehovah's Witnesses clutching bibles; and one a brief case. Over the next few months things are going well. He's had a number of bible studies and is buying into the organization. At 23 years old he's in a good school studying astrophysics. My question is, when does the Society begin to interfere in his life and future plans?

I've heard that it's not unusual for the elders and even general members to offer...umm...unsolicited advice on wholly temporal matters. And that seeking higher education is frowned upon by the leadership of the Society.

So when is Johnny Normal ready for some counseling? And why do regular JWs feel they can interfere with trivial matters that are none of their business?

Any examples anyone can share?